THOUGH NONE GO WITH ME

The more and more I study the scriptures the less and less I find myself looking for Christ to set up a physical kingdom on this earth.  But the more and more I read the writings of other Christians, even those who claim to have “come out of Babylon”, the more I see of this same looking forward to a physical kingdom, a kingdom to be set up on this earth, in which the spiritually mature (“the elect”) will come forth in “the first resurrection” and “rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years”.

How is it that those of us who know that the Jews did not recognize their Messiah because they were looking for an earthly king to rule over an earthly kingdom, who believe that Jesus Christ IS THE MESSIAH and that HE IS, even now, RULING AS KING over a SPIRITUAL Kingdom (WITHIN)… are (not unlike the Jews, but very much like them) still looking for a physical kingdom to be established on this earth, just as are the Jews?

I have read the wonderful writings of so many brothers and sisters in Christ who believe, as I do, in the salvation of all men and nearly every one of them is looking for a physical kingdom in which to rule and reign with Christ during “the millennium”. They look forward to coming forth in “the first resurrection” and speak of the judgment which is to follow “the second resurrection” at the end of “the millennium” – though they are not counting the resurrection of Jesus when it comes to “the first resurrection” and nowhere in the entirety of scripture can one find the words “the second resurrection”. Not that I do not understand, as I was once looking for the same. But no more!

There is so much that I see differently now from when I first came to believe in the salvation of all men that I have to ask myself: “What makes me think that I am the one who is seeing these things correctly, especially when so many others are in agreement and I am in the minority?” But then I, like they, are also in the minority when it comes to believing God for the salvation “of the world” and not just for a small or limited portion of it. So what does truth have to do with the number of people who might (or might not) believe something? Especially when “many are called but few are chosen” and “few there be that find” the straight gate and the narrow way that leads to life?

So while I may think that those who disagree with me have not gone “far enough” to understand spiritual truths, they might think I have gone “too far” and am looking at things “too spiritually”. And, indeed, I am not unfamiliar with the accusation. I have even been accused of “Gnosticism” – though I do not know what it is they think I have in common with the Gnostics.

Truly, even those accused of “heresy” themselves by Orthodoxy can be quick to throw that same accusation around themselves when they come up against those with whom they disagree, even their fellow Unorthodox Christians. I guess you can be “too Unorthodox!!” And though I suppose you can be (anything is possible), how does one go about reconciling the differences that they have with others while still being true to the Lord? For we ALL believe as we do because we believe that our beliefs are founded in the Truth, don’t we? I sure hope so!!

Granted, there are some who rely on the teaching of others rather than searching these things out for themselves, but what happens when that is not the case at all? What happens when we think we have “left Babylon” only to find ourselves disagreeing with others, who claim to have done the same, over different things? Not just arguing over the doctrine of “eternal torment” but over what and where the Kingdom of God is? What (or Who) the resurrection of the dead is? Even over the number of resurrections there will be? Over what is meant to be understood “spiritually” and what is meant to be taken “literally”? How do we deal with all of these differences… when we are all claiming to be “spiritually minded” and we all believe that we are hearing from the Lord and being lead by the Spirit?

Surely we cannot deny that the Lord will answer a prophet according to the many idols of his heart and even send us strong delusion that we might believe a lie, but the existence of those differences do not, in and of themselves, prove “strong delusion” or even the existence of “idols”, do they? And even if they do how are we to know “who is the one with the idol(s)”?

We can also not deny that many claiming to hear from the Lord or to have a word from the Lord have not actually heard from the Lord at all. So how are we to know the difference, except by the power of the Holy Spirit? And once we have heard from the Lord do we not recognize His voice and know when He is speaking and when He is not? Perhaps not always, but I do believe that the more we hear from the Lord the better we are able to discern His voice and differentiate it from all other voices. We may also know when He is being silent and we are being required to “wait on the Lord”. Let us then wait!

But how then should we handle our differences? If I feel the Lord is telling me one thing and someone else feels the Lord is telling them something different, what am I to do? What should any of us do?  Should we doubt them? Should we doubt ourselves? Perhaps we are both wrong, all wrong? And what if we are the only one standing on the side of the argument on which we stand! Then what?

Some may think that the answer to this question is easy… if you are the only one who sees something – or if very few others see as you do – it is most likely you who is not standing in the truth. But, while I think that is certainly possible, I don’t necessarily think that it is always going to be the case. And should we not being willing to stand on the truth, even if we stand alone? For, if we are standing on the Truth are we ever really standing alone?

Are you willing to stand up for what you believe, even if your only witness is Him who cannot be seen standing with you? I am!

That being said, my initial answer to my question was actually going to be: “This is a hard question to answer.” But as soon as I typed those words I knew they were not true; that, for me, there could be only one answer: “Let God be true, but every man a liar.” And as soon as those words came to me I immediately thought of the title of a movie that I saw some time back: “Though none go with me”.

I knew of the hymn but thought it was base on a passage of scripture (and maybe it is) but I could not find it. But in searching for it, I came across this blog. It mentions not only the movie but the book on which the movie was based. It contains a brief excerpt from the book and it is worth reading – even as the blog itself is worth reading. As it is so true… that we do not always know what we are getting ourselves into when we pray for a deeper relationship with the Lord. Nor do we know how or when He will answer that prayer or what it might mean to us in the way of our suffering with Christ… nor that it might mean that we will have to say: “Though none go with me, still I will follow!

So while I venture to always have an open mind, I know that neither I nor any of us will ever be convinced of an error apart from the Lord revealing that error to us. And I’d rather stand firm in an error that I believe is the truth, something that came from the Lord, than to go around always doubting myself or being unsure of what I believe or what I should believe or why. I have seen people like that and I think that must be what it means to be “lukewarm”.

So while I will ALWAYS recognize that “I could be wrong” (as I have been wrong about MANY things in the past and do not claim to now have “all truth” just because I have let those “many” things go) I will also ALWAYS place my trust in God rather than man. And unless or until God tells me that I am seeing amiss and opens my eyes and ears to a new/different understanding, I am going to stand firm in that which I currently believe. (And this correction may come though other men, so please no one think I am saying otherwise…. I have gotten many a revelation through the body of Christ… and sometimes the person through whom it comes doesn’t even know it and can’t even see it themselves, but still it is given – because it comes from God through the Spirit.)

I don’t believe that God shines the Light of Truth on us all at once. How could He? How could we survive that? That is why we must grow and mature… starting out as babes, seeking the sincere milk of the word… until we are able to partake of solid food… and eventually the meat that has been prepared for us… which is provided “in due season”.

So, to those who might not see things as I do, I say: Let’s not let our differences cause us to forget that we are all a part of the same body, the body of Christ. Let us not allow our differences to cause division in the body. Let not the eye say to the hand “I have no need of you”.  Let us always remember that we should not be “forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is”.

Let us continue to “reason together” until “we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.”

All Blessings in Christ!

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About Christine

My name is Christine and since my favorite past-time, the one that I find the most fulfilling, is studying the scriptures and seeking to know and understand "the deep things of God", I have created this blog as a place to not only post my own bible studies but as a way to connect with others who are are also seeking the Lord and the Truth. I've posted some of my studies on other websites and haven't yet decided if I will post them here, as well, or if I will just post future blogs/studies here. We'll see. Thanks for stopping by and please do so again... maybe after I get something posted. :) ALL BLESSINGS IN CHRIST!!
This entry was posted in Christian Universalism, Christianity, Religion & Philosophy, Universal Salvation and tagged , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink.

9 Responses to THOUGH NONE GO WITH ME

  1. Blaine says:

    The thought-world encompassing “universal reconciliation” is being subscribed to mostly by those who are rightfully fleeing the nefarious ancestral ‘gospel of eternal torment”..

    The problem I have with the idea of ‘universal reconciliation” is that it fails to recognize that nowhere in Scripture does it state that God is the one who pays the wages of sin.
    God only possesses the Book of Life. He rewards those who diligently seek Him.
    It is the evil one who possesses the Book of Death. The wages of sin are paid by the evil one. After all, a sinner is paid by the one who employs/inspired them. (not God).
    You are also owned by the one you serve.
    The ‘universalists’ have the concept correct; but the doctrine wrong. They are correct insofar as discovering that God is only and perfectly good. However, they are wrong by insisting that everyone (regardless of the gospel of repentance) becomes immune from their deserved wages and inexplicably escape the clutches of their enemies.
    It’s God earnest desire that no one should perish. This is what the Parable of the Peal speaks about … the heavenly transaction that exchanged a thousand tarnished coins (humanity) for one of exceptional price (Jesus).
    However, God does not behave unjustly; He cannot steal back the rightful property of the evil one. If God could have compelled the evil one to return His property, there would not have been any reason for the redeeming blood.
    When the evil enters the Lake of Fire, he is entitled to drag his possessions with him.

    Here is a quote from a ‘ToT’ Periodical (Desk of the Editor)
    ” Inspite of the Bible saying, “the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance”, there are many Christians who have only heard the ‘Gospel of Fear and Torment’.

    It seems that the large marjority of those who have heard this nefarious gospel still retain an image of their God which is nearer to that of a schizophrenic pagan god than that of the true Christian God of whom the apostle John declared: “This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all”.

    Even after so long a time has passed since they first repented, they have neglected to return to the Scriptures and obtain for themselves a proper image of the character and attributes of the only good and perfect God. They failed to remain faithful to the words of James who wrote, “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning”.

    Instead, they blurred God’s hallowed Name by outrightly accusing Him of being an accomplice to evil. They happily testify that God commits evil for reasons only He knows and which He alone can justify. Inevitably, they ended up with a tragic and convoluted belief system which invented ideas which declared everyone as involuntary victims of some nefariousdivine plot.

    I have often wondered what can meet the needs of these who suffer the hysterics of a divine vengenance. What words would be sufficient to deliver them out from under the oppressive fears of receiving punishment and revenge at the hands of their God? Frankly, I don’t believe there are any. Why? Because the Bible states that one must first determine that God exists before he can hope to receive anything from Him; “… for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him”, Hebrews 11:6.

    There might be those who would protest and say: “I believe God exists!” To which I would reply, “Well, not really. The God whom you imagine in your fearful hearts, the God whom you confess as desiring to punish and heap revenge upon every living thing … this God does not exist.

    Those who remained unable to find the true God of the Bible and subsequently unable to fully “Worship Him in spirit and in truth” became increasingly desperate to extricate themselves from under the hypnotic stare of guilt and the ‘wages of sin’.

    Not surprisingly, they hurried to adopt something akin to ‘celestial fire insurance’ which they claim is stamped with God’s official business trademark of ‘Eternal Torment Inc’. This apparently guarantees that they have become exempt from the prospect of being incinerated in an eternal hell-fire. It’s all so neatly wrapped and decorated with the admonition, “Don’t worry! Be happy!”.

    Some of the more emboldened even excitedly speak of a day when Satan himself will be ‘saved’. The arch enemy of both God and man is seen by these people to be as much a hapless victim of ‘Eternal Torment Inc’ as they perceive themselves to be. This same devil who “was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth because there is no truth in him”, will one day be invited by the heavenly Father (according to these people) to take a seat at the right hand of God. Frankly, to be found holding such a toughtworld is both absurd and shameful.

    Still others soon added a dubious ‘Flood Insurance Policy’ to their glory road. This allowed them to declare that Satan had already been made powerless and a defeated enemy. Evidently, all one has to dowhen holding a ‘Flood Insurance Policy’ is to tread water and wait patiently for the end to come. Lest onemight suspect this as something of a free ride, they are quick to point out that one must be extra vigilant not to commit the ‘unpardonable sin’, which would invalidate the Policy immediately.

    They failed to discern that the flood of Noah’s days is an image of the things that will happen in the latter days. At the flood, the windows of the heavens were opened and also the fountains of the great deep as the waters covered the whole earth. Similarly, the Bible states that in the latter days an invasion of powers from heaven will throw themselves on the earth and the hosts of the powers called up from the Bottomless Pit will cover the earth.

    The biblical flood is an image of the great tribulation. As Noah was saved in the visible world from the flood that covered the earth, so the Lord is preparing a people to Himself in these days which will be saved from the fiery ordeal that is about to engulf the entire earth. The spiritual life of the people who are not in Christ will then be completely overwhelmed by the powers of darkness. Jesus said: “Upon the earth distress of nations in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world; for the powers of heaven will be shaken”, (Luke 21:25-26).

    There is no mention of fire or flood insurance in the the Bible. It does however implore us to, “take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand”. It speaks of those those who are sealed and filled with the Spirit of God and how these will be able to overcome. It mentions a struggle and describes how the people of God must have an armor which enables them to withstand in the evil day (Eph 6:13). Because then it will be power against power, Spirit against spirit, and miracle against miracle.

    At first glance, it does appear that everyone is able to obtain for themselves an insurance policy fitting to their delusions. Yet, I hasten to add, if such ideas are what first compels someone to repent and stumble through the doors of the kingdom, then so be it. It wouldn’t be the first time that someone visited a far away country and, after much investigation, decided to forsake all to obtain proper citizenship and establish themselves there.

    Thankfully, we are living in a day and hour when Christians are hearing the Gospel of ‘LIFE ASSURANCE’ and choosing to expand and mature their faith.

    The Gospel of the Kingdom invites everyone to cast off their sandals of clay and shields of straw, to discard the masks of pretentious piety, and to remove the cloaks which were knitted by the zealots of religious puppetry.

    We no longer are mezmerized by the cultural church and their theatrical pilgrimages. No longer do we chase after occult methodologies to camoflage the betrayal of God’s only good and perfect character.

    We refuse to pay heed to the ‘Gospel of the Parroters’ which denies that the living God speaks to His church in this very day and hour.
    We have learned to cringe under those pretended hugs at Babylon’s door; the embalmers embrace!
    We refuse to follow after the ‘Gospel of Anaesthesia’ where the ‘dead’ are merely exhumed and not resurrected.
    We wish no part of the ‘Gospel of Autopsy’ which eagerly rips open festeringwounds and teases the most secret scars but fails to provide the ointments of restoration and healing.
    We have become deaf to the ‘Gospel of Health and Wealth’ which functions with the pernicious skill of ambulance chasers.

    Instead, our increasing knowledge of the Gospel of the Kingdom has enabled us to set ourselves upon a spiritual journey which seeks the transparency of the Word of God and the wonderous freedom it avails.

    The Gospel of Jesus offers elevation, not levitation; life assurance, not a fire insurance; genuine freedom, and not merely a tentative truce.
    Its preoccupation is mercy, not money; triumph, not success; inheritance, not reward. ”
    .

  2. Christine says:

    Hello Blaine, I wish I had seen this earlier when I had more time. I’d hate to rush through a response tonight, so I would like to come back to this again tomorrow. But I would like to point out that while some Universalists don’t preach repentance and will even say there is no such thing as sin; therefore, no need for repentance, you will not hear all Universalists saying this. Certainly not me!

    It’s not much different from those who believe in eternal torment, or even annihilation, I suppose. Though they have the belief that all men will be saved in common, there can be very many differences between them when it comes to how God accomplished that, as well as differences among other things.

    The wages of sin is death. And while Jesus did die “for us”, he did not die “in our place”. He died to save us “out of” sin and death, through “the resurrection of the dead.” I do not believe that anyone escapes the lake of fire; we were cast into the lake of fire (which is the second death) when we were baptized into Christ, into HIS DEATH… even when we were DEAD in sins. Notice that it is the devil, the beast and the false prophet who are cast into the lake of fire… they are not cast in to be saved, but to be destroyed. This speaks to “old man” – the natural, carnal man – who was “crucified with Christ”.

    I do not see this as a future event but that which takes place when the carnally minded “crucify Christ” in their mind (of which Calvary typifies). Then is Christ “buried in the heart of the earth” until “the third day”, which spiritually speaking is “today, when we hear his voice and harden not our hearts”. I have written other studies on all of these things and I can elaborate more, if you like. But, for now, I’m going to say good night. But thank you for stopping by and I hope to be able to add more later when I have more time, if you’d like.

  3. Blaine says:

    Hi! Christine
    It’s very kind and thoughtful of you to take the time to have continued discussions with your Blog Readers. Much appreciated!
    It’s difficult for me to fathom all that you write. I’m not sure if It’s that I’m a ‘Johnny-Come-Late’ to your thought-world or that it’s so entirely convoluted that it’s impossible to properly grasp it in any cohesive manner.
    To be honest, I find myself with the same frustration when reading the writings of Ken Sheck.
    It just seems that both you and Ken make startling claims without ever placing them squarely before your readers for proper examination; line upon line and precept upon precept.
    But, as I said, maybe you have explicitly explained them somewhere else in your Blog and this Johhny-Come-Late’ somehow missed them along the way.
    Anyways, like I said previously, it’s very frustrating for me. Admittedly, I parachuted into your discussion here without any prior knowledge of your adjacent thought-world/ideas. So. it’s very likely my own fault for failing to comprehend it all.
    For instance, you wrote:
    –> I do not believe that anyone escapes the lake of fire; we were cast into the lake of fire (which is the second death) when we were baptized into Christ, into HIS DEATH… even when we were DEAD in sins. Notice that it is the devil, the beast and the false prophet who are cast into the lake of fire… they are not cast in to be saved, but to be destroyed. This speaks to “old man” – the natural, carnal man – who was “crucified with Christ”. <–
    This is an astounding claim!
    Made all the more difficult because you failed to explain your concept of the Lake of Fire.
    Ken writes in the same fashion as you do, Amid his occasional truths enunciated, there are glaring unsubstantiated claims which are never clearly addressed. The claims simply sit there dangerously orphaned from a proper detailed explanation.
    And that's where I'm unable to read further … or at least comprehend what I'm reading.
    So? Please explain line-upon-line about how it is that we are baptized into the Second Death by entering into the Lake of Fire which results with us being crucified with Christ.
    I'd be very interested to return here and read it.

  4. Christine says:

    Hello again Blaine!

    Thanks, I think? At least for your initial comments. 🙂 I have no problem discussing anything that I write, though I will say that doing so in comments to blogs may not be the best or most efficient way to do that, especially when replying to comments that are especially long. 🙂

    But as far as you not being able to understand what I write, you seem to be making that comment in reference to what I wrote in my reply to your first comment above, rather than in response to the actual blog post itself? If that is true, please allow me to point out to you that while I have written on the second death and the Lake of Fire, I did not do so in this blog and it only came up here because you brought it up in your comment. It was because you brought it up in your comment that I touched on it in my response to you… and, you are correct, I did not “explain” how I see it with any great detail – nor was it my intention to do so. As I stated in my first comment to you, it was already late when I saw your comments and all I wanted to do was as a brief reply – only to point out to you that what you said about how those who believe in UR see it, is not correct – at least not for all – not for me.

    As far as my blogs are concerned, in general, some of them are written in more of a “blog” style, especially the more recent ones, while others are simply my own personal “study notes” in which I make very few comments of my own at all. In those, I merely “present the scriptures” on a particular topic of study, as I see them related in order to show ‘the connections” that I am making between them. It’s not my intention “to explain” anything – only to show the connections that I am seeing. Others may see them, too… or they may not. But the purpose is not for me to lord myself over others as their teacher. I merely share what I am seeing in my own personal studies; things that have blessed me. Whether that be some “thought” that I can put down “blog style” or just a presentation of scriptures in which I see a connection or pattern that others might also pick up on, as I have.

  5. Sean says:

    I am as impressed with this article as I am increasingly disillusioned with mainstream ‘Churchianity’. The position of both Arminianists and Calvinists on the subject of ‘hellfire’ is absurd and grotesque. Anyone who believes in a hell of unending anguish has utterly failed to grasp the true nature of God, as well as the multi-dimensional nature of manifest reality, including man himself. The ‘lake of fire’ is actually an Egyptian and Greco-Roman concept that reappeared later in the highly symbolic Judeo-Christian Book of Revelation, which any competent historian could demonstrate. And, in any event this ‘lake of fire and sulphur’ is an esoteric symbol that relates to the Divine Energy of God’s Holy Spirit and the painful purifying and transformative work effected in man’s second ‘body’: the electromagnetic plasma counterpart of the physical body, composed of much higher energy (‘supersymmetric’) particles than the material organism.

    I don’t, of course, expect mainliners to buy any of this, but the reality of man’s second ‘body’ will soon enough be commonly accepted knowledge in scientific and psychological circles, and will force us as Christians to review several key aspects of our soteriology and eschatology, irrespective of our theological and denominational orientation and allegiance.

    Blessings in Christ Jesus, now and always.

  6. Christine says:

    Hi Sean! Thanks for reading and commenting. As I understand it, being “cast into the lake of fire” is/was our baptism into Christ. This is “the second death” (our baptism into HIS DEATH) through which comes “the resurrection of the dead” 9as we “have part in” HIS RESURRECTION). It’s interesting that “the last thing” that most Christians seem to see in the book of the revelation of Jesus Christ is those whose names are not written in the book of life being cast into the lake of fire when Chapter 22 ends with the Spirit and the bride saying COME! “Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”

    All Blessings in Christ!

  7. Hi Sister — It’s the spiritual Kingdom that God will set up. Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. We will receive outpouring of the Spirit, arise in sanctification, and transfigure. Revelation 12. The fires of Revelation 18 will go forth. The soil of the nation of Revelation 12 will be set apart for God for the escape from the Great Tribulation. It’s rapture. 🙂

  8. Sister, you said, “Some of the more emboldened even excitedly speak of a day when Satan himself will be ‘saved’. The arch enemy of both God and man is seen by these people to be as much a hapless victim of ‘Eternal Torment Inc’ as they perceive themselves to be. This same devil who “was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth because there is no truth in him”, will one day be invited by the heavenly Father (according to these people) to take a seat at the right hand of God. Frankly, to be found holding such a toughtworld is both absurd and shameful.”

    God created this creation straight into hell in Genesis 1:1-5. The darkness that was void and without form — was hell. God pursued the fallen angels into hell, then created this material creation out of hell by His Light and goodness in mercy and grace. Jesus said from the cross, “Forgive them, Father, they know not what they do”. To make it short, actually, all those on the left of Jesus on Judgment Day who are cast into the lake of fire (in destruction of evil — then come through the fire saved) are the devil and his angels in human flesh appearing.

    They could not be saved in spiritual bodies as spirit beings. So, they were given human bodies through the creation of this realm — able to be born as men through the fall of Adam and Eve in God’s plan. There will not be any “devils or angels” who are not human beings on the Last Day. They will be the unsaved mankind who go through the fire and are saved. (As you read in Isaiah 14, Satan is made to become a man and is cast into hell as a man in human flesh with worms covering him for the 1000 years he is sealed in the abyss as his punishment.)

    So, there really is no “separate class” of evil persons on the last day distinct from mankind who are the devil and his angels. Rather the devil and his angels have become mankind who is reprobate and damned on the left of Jesus on Judgment Day. They will come through the fire saved as you know. It was necessary they be born in human bodies to gain benefit of the redemption wrought on the cross of Jesus Christ for all mankind — not angels. They needed to be made men in the Sovereign Whole Counsel Plan and will of God who wills that all men be saved to be testified in due time.

    And, who are we, you might ask?? We are seated with Christ in Heavenly places born from above. Our angels do always behold the face of God our Father. We entertain angels unawares. We who are born of the Spirit are spirit not flesh – and, in our spirits, we are the holy angels being born in human bodies as the elect saints.

    Jesus was the firstborn of many brethren. The race of angels is being born as men in addition to God Himself being born as a man as Christ Jesus our Lord.

    This creation is about the restoration of angels. There’s “no such thing” really as a “human being” who is not an angel – holy or unholy – saint or sinner — and all will be restored holy on the Last Day.

    God bless.

  9. PS… Sorry… I was scrolling up to re-read your article and wrongly attributed to you Blaine’s statement. Chagrin!!

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